The Duke: Weekly Conversations With The Last Honest Politician, with Scott Kerman (episode 350)

Automatic Shownotes

Chapters

Transcript

Jake:
[0:03] Welcome to Hub History, where we go far beyond the freedom trail to share our favorite stories from the history of Boston, the Hub of the Universe.

Introduction to The Duke

Jake:
[0:13] This is episode 350, The Duke, Weekly Conversations with the Last Honest Politician, with Scott Kerman. Hi, I’m Jake. In just a few moments, I’m going to be joined by Scott Kerman, whose new book about Governor Mike Dukakis gets a double subtitle.

Jake:
[0:36] In just a few minutes, in just a few moments, I’m going to be joined by Scott Kerman, who’s written a new book about Governor Mike Dukakis that’s so massive that it gets a double subtitle. With its full Christian name, the book is The Duke, Weekly Conversations with the Last Honest Politician. A political giant and a comedian walk into a kitchen.

Jake:
[1:00] Now, when we talk about Governor Dukakis, we’re going to get into the 1970s, the 80s, even into the 90s. And I can only think of one other episode of this show that covers events that took place that recently, which is our episode from July of 2019 about the 1989 Cessna Strafer, which of course I’ll link to in the show notes this week. I think we could have a pretty serious conversation about whether this book counts as history, but Michael Dukakis was a major party presidential candidate, and he was and is the longest-serving governor of the Commonwealth. When Scott first contacted me about his book back in November, I was shocked to learn that it’s the first book about Governor Dukakis in decades, and as far as I can tell, the only one to include a wider focus than that 1988 presidential race. As you’ll hear momentarily, as a humorist and comedian, Scott approaches this book very differently from most biographers. But if you have any interest in Governor Dukakis, you’ll find the conversation interesting.

Jake:
[2:06] But before we get into that conversation about Scott’s conversations with the Duke, I just want to pause and say a big thank you to everybody who supports Hub History financially. This core group of listener supporters makes it possible for me to make this podcast, and to make it without constantly worrying about where the money comes from. Some listeners choose to throw me a few bucks here and there when they can, which they can do on a one-time basis on PayPal. Others sign up to contribute $2, $5, or larger amounts on an ongoing monthly basis by subscribing to our Patreon. Both types of support mean the world to me because one-offs can pay for tools like my mics and this new laptop I’m recording on, while ongoing contributions support ongoing expenses, like our media hosting service and online security. To everybody who’s already supporting the show, thank you. If you’re not yet supporting the show and you’d like to start, it’s easy. Just go to patreon.com slash hubhistory or visit hubhistory.com and click on the Support Us link. And thanks again to all our new and returning sponsors.

Meet Scott Kerman

Jake:
[3:20] I’m joined now by Scott Kerman. Scott Kerman is a humorist and a stand-up comic with a weekly column in the Eagle Tribune newspaper. He’s the author of eight books, including four volumes collecting his The World According to Scott newspaper columns. His newest book is The Duke, and as the subtitle implies, it was born out of a series of weekly kitchen table conversations with former mass governor Mike Dukakis and their shared hometown of Brookline.

Jake:
[3:53] Scott was a stand-up comedian for over 20 years, with appearances on HBO Live from the Aspen Comedy Festival and on Comedy Central. He’s also the host of a long-running sports talk show called The Grandstanders. You can catch that on YouTube. Well, Scott Kerman, welcome to the show.

Scott:
[4:13] Jake, thanks for having me.

Jake:
[4:15] I’ve asked you to be here today to discuss your new book or your newest book. I know it’s been on the shelves for a little while now, but your book, The Duke, Weekly Conversations with the Last Honest Politician. Is this the first book about Governor Michael Dukakis?

Scott:
[4:30] It is. That’s funny. When I researched and thought about writing a book about Governor Dukakis, Jake, I looked online and there had been a book written about him. There’s been a book written about every politician, Jake, known to mankind. Dan Quayle has a book. It’s misspelled, but Dan Quayle has a book.

Jake:
[4:52] And I almost stumbled over my words when I was asking that question. I started to say, is this the first biography of Governor Dukakis? And then I wasn’t sure. Do you consider the book you wrote a biography of the governor?

Scott:
[5:04] Oh, no, this isn’t a biography at all. In fact, I didn’t want to write a biography. I have to be honest with you. I didn’t think it would be interesting enough. I wanted to be able to do a book about the man that I know, the humanized part of Michael Dukakis, the guy that has touched thousands and thousands of lives, not only in the Massachusetts area, but across the world.

Jake:
[5:27] When did you first meet Governor Dukakis?

Scott:
[5:31] I met Governor Dukakis when I was 11 years old. My parents were great fundraisers for him, and they had an ice cream smorgasbord in our backyard in Methuen, Massachusetts. He was standing there eating his coffee ice cream. I went up to him, and with my strawberry ice cream in tow, we started talking about the Red Sox. And if he was here right now, Jake, he’d say, and 50 years later, we’re still talking about the Red Sox.

Jake:
[6:00] I’m much more of a strawberry ice cream person than coffee myself, so I’m with you there. So obviously, you didn’t start writing this book when you were 11 years old. So when did you then re-meet the governor as a grown-up?

Scott:
[6:12] Stayed in touch with him. And it’s through my family, too, because, again, we’ve always been huge supporters of him. Really reconnected 20 years ago when I moved back to Brookline. And 15 years ago, I started a sports TV show called The Grandstanders. Jake, the people who are my co-hosts are my mailman, my barber, and the two guys I sit right next to in the grandstands at Fenway Park, thus the grandstanders. So a couple of weeks into the show, the mailman goes to me, Jake, he goes, I think we need guests. I think they have guests on these kind of shows. So I said, OK.

The Conversations Begin

Scott:
[6:48] So I called up, the first person I called up was the governor. So I explained to him the show. Then all of a sudden he goes, well, Scott, I’ve never been on a sports show talking sports. I go, okay, Governor, I understand. How about next Thursday? So on an annual basis and sometimes twice a year, he would be on our show. He would talk about sports, politics, and life. He’s a topic jumper. Maybe you’re a topic jumper and you do this podcast. He’ll go from talking about public policy one second to Greek pastries the next.

Jake:
[7:23] He has such a giant brain. He must be able to jump topics like that because he has it all in his head at the same time.

Scott:
[7:29] Exactly. So we were talking about how the Red Sox stink, which can be a common theme. And he says this. He goes, Scott, I can’t understand how anyone can be anything but honest. I was brought up to believe that honesty wasn’t a choice. It was the way you lived your life. You tell the truth. This is non-negotiable. You do what’s right. It’s not that hard. I’ve never understood lying. Who talks like this anymore? Why doesn’t anyone talk like this anymore?

Jake:
[7:58] Sounds like a conversation I have pretty regularly with my wife, where my policy is always that I’m not smart enough to be a good liar, so I better just tell the truth. I won’t be able to remember my own lies, so I better just stick to the truth.

Scott:
[8:12] Yeah, right. Exactly. You don’t have to cover yourself. He’s always been a very honest person. I mean, this is genuine. He, Jake, is the real deal. Then we spoke about it, and I said, well, we’ll do this book this way. We talk like we do on the show. I’ll come to your house once a week. I’ll sit at your kitchen table for two hours a week, and we’ll just talk. I’ll press record, and we’ll see what comes about it. And it took five years for me to feel comfortable enough to finish the book the way I wanted to write it and the way I thought that he would enjoy reading it. And the response to the book has been incredible.

Jake:
[8:51] So I’m trying to do some mental math here. You say it’s roughly five years of conversations, weekly conversations. How many chats with the governor does that work out to you? That’s hundreds of sit-downs.

Scott:
[9:03] Definitely over 200.

Jake:
[9:04] Wow.

Scott:
[9:05] So I have over 400 hours recorded of the governor. You get to know him.

Jake:
[9:13] Without prying too much. Is he down the block from you or something convenient like that?

Scott:
[9:17] Yeah, I can walk there in 15 minutes.

Jake:
[9:18] I was going to say, former Mayor Menino was one of my neighbors, but I was never quite at the level where I could just invite myself over every week if I wanted to. Did you go into this part of the project? Did it start as, we’re going to have some conversations to write a book? Or did it start as, let’s have some conversations?

Scott:
[9:40] No, no. He always knew that I was going to write a book. The Duke is my seventh book. So he was familiar with my writing. And I told him that it’s going to be humor. I write a lot of humor. But I also told him, I will protect you because I understand that I am coming into your house. And there’s certain things that are going to stay in this house no matter what.

Jake:
[10:00] The governor’s got to be almost 90, right? He’s 92. 92.

Scott:
[10:05] Yeah.

Jake:
[10:05] I wonder if you reflect back, do you have a sense of why you thought now was the time to collaborate on a book?

Scott:
[10:11] Not to ring my own horn, but I think that him and I have a very special relationship. And I think he knew to trust me. But, you know, it’s funny, Jake. The first six months we were talking, he would at times go off the record. Because he was used to talking to reporters for his whole life. And so finally, after six months, I said, Governor, you can’t do that anymore. If you don’t want me to know something, don’t tell me it. Okay? But I’m not shutting the quarter off anymore.

Jake:
[10:40] You got to the point of having some really intensely personal conversations, and he included some really personal reflections about the death of his brother. How do you think you got him to that point of comfort of being able to share those sorts of things?

Scott:
[10:56] I think that, Jake, you make a great point in the sense that I think he was at the age and the time of his life that it was either now or never happening. He got emotional. There were times, and I wasn’t ready for that early on. Who wants to see anybody cry? And I love the guy. I mean, we talk about that all. I think that we enjoy each other’s company. But no, who wants to see an older gentleman cry? And I wasn’t looking to do that. He would revisit some things like his brother’s death. His brother in Brookline in 1973 on Winchester Street, actually a street down from where I live, was riding a bicycle, was hit by a car, was left in a ditch to die. He never regained consciousness and died in the hospital four months later. This was his only sibling, his older brother, who had a huge impact in his life, and it’s clearly affected him to this day.

Jake:
[11:53] Yeah, that’s terrible. And maybe helps explain some of the governor’s track record of always trying to make travel and transit and driving safer in our state.

Scott:
[12:03] Yeah.

Jake:
[12:04] I think maybe I’m a few years younger than you, not a whole lot, but a few. And I didn’t grow up in mass. So my first real exposure to Governor Dukakis was the 88 presidential campaign. And I also didn’t have TV growing up. So what I remember most from that year is the political cartoons and newspapers and magazines and stuff focused on the famous tank photo. Did you ever get the governor’s reflections on that photo op these,

The Tank Photo Reflection

Jake:
[12:34] what, 40-some years later?

Scott:
[12:35] Well, the fact is, Jake, that anyone under 50 years old, if they know who Mike Dukakis is at all, will know him from that tank photo. It’s a sad state of affairs that that’s the case. I’m hoping that this book somehow brings to light that it was far beyond that tank photo. Yes, the tank photo still exists because it’s a meme. You know, you’ll probably a few times a year, you’ll see it pop up in your social media account.

Scott:
[13:03] Yes, we talked about it. So he doesn’t understand why people reacted like they did to it. And he doesn’t understand why it still has legs to this day. You know, look, it was a terrible decision. His administration, his administration did that. They rented an open field in Michigan. They rented the tank. They put him in a clown’s hat, a helmet that was like 12 sizes too big for him. They paraded him around that field and top of a tank. They did all of that. In fact, the media was discouraging from them from doing that, said, why don’t you just take a picture in front of the tank? They wouldn’t do that. Now, why were they doing this? They wanted to prove that he could be commander in chief. Because obviously George Bush Sr. had an incredible – he was a decorated – Fighter pilot. Military. But the irony was, and people don’t know this, he served in the army, Michael Dukakis.

Jake:
[14:11] I was going to say that. The Bush campaign did such a hatchet job with that photo and the press, too, that most people, myself included, don’t really realize that Governor Dukakis put off Harvard Law to volunteer for the Army.

Scott:
[14:30] Yeah. Was at the DMZ. That’s where he was stationed. And there’s some fantastic photos of him on a mountain, you know, overlooking the DMZ.

Scott:
[14:40] That’s all you need to do and move on with your day. Now, it’s kind of a funny story. He was surprised by the reaction. See, he thought it was going to be funny because the year prior –, Boston Celtics had the big three, Larry Bird, Robert Parrish, and Kevin McHale. He does a famous photo op at Hellenic College, which was located in Brookline, where he is standing on a chair. He’s got a really cool Celtics warm-up suit on. The Celtics, the big three, are in full uniform, and McHale has a basketball on top of his head, and they’re still taller than Michael Tkachakis. So, he thought that would be kind of the same theme, that picture. Well, I said, well, clearly it wasn’t. I said, maybe things would have been different had Larry Bird been riding alongside you in the tank. He says, that’s a good idea. We’ll do it next time. It’s those mistakes. And there were three big mistakes that were made after the convention in 88. He had a 17-point lead, Jake. And a 17-point lead – no, remember, the conventions in the middle of July, the elections in the first Tuesday of November. There’s not a lot of time between those. You have a 17-point lead. Kitty should be measuring for Curtis.

Jake:
[16:00] Yeah, it’s a different world now where the nominees are presumed long before the convention and you have basically a full year’s campaign. Back then, you didn’t know who the nominee was going to be.

Scott:
[16:10] Well, he went to the convention and Jesse Jackson was still fighting him over it. And Jesse Jackson ultimately gave in during the convention, Jesse Jackson finishing in second place. But the governor, he talks about Jesse Jackson respected him greatly, but he called him a pain in the ass. And that was one of the first moments I felt like he was opening up to me because that was just outside of his personality.

Jake:
[16:35] It’s got to be hard to fail on such a huge stage and then come back home at the end of the 88 campaign and continue.

Scott:
[16:44] Keep governing well he’s always been a working governor part of his mistake was that he continued to work as governor while running for president he was criticized there would be times he went home and said it would be an on the road so he could do the the business of being governor and to be honest with you there’s hints of it in the book it may have been because of of his trust factor with his lieutenant governor. So he went back to being a working governor, but it has haunted him to this day. What has haunted him, and we talk a lot about this in the book, and we kind of work through it, is the debate question, the famous debate question. It was the second debate, the second and final debate in Los Angeles, California.

Scott:
[17:34] Bernard Shaw was the moderator. He was the lead anchor on CNN at the time. The debate starts. he introduces himself in the panel he then says jake that the rules are there are no rules and we can ask whatever we want we haven’t checked with the candidates and my first question is to governor dukakis i mean we’re talking about incident you watch a tape bang bang bang bang bang my first question is to governor dukakis governor dukakis if your wife kitty dukakis now she is five feet behind bernard shaw when he asked the question if your wife kitty dukakis was raped and murdered, would you still oppose the death penalty? What a question.

Jake:
[18:18] Yeah.

Scott:
[18:18] What a horrific question. Can you imagine if a moderator asked that question now, your computer would blow up. It would just explode, right? Twitter wouldn’t even know what to do with it. First of all, that didn’t happen. Second of all, it only happened in Bernard Shaw’s distorted sense of reality, this imaginary plight for the woman that he loves, that the government caucus loves more than any person in this planet and is five feet behind him. So it’s a loaded question, Jake. He can’t win on this one, right? If he says, oh, well, Bernard, you’re talking about my wife. Now, if you’re talking about my wife, the things have changed. Of course, I’d like to see the death penalty apply. So he can’t do that because then he sounds like he’s walking.

Jake:
[19:06] A hypocrite, right.

Scott:
[19:07] Right. So if he says, but if he’s stiff and says, well, Bernard, you know, my whole life I’ve opposed the death penalty. Well, then he seems insensitive to his wife’s imaginary plight. So he says, damn it if you do, damn it if you don’t. So I ask him to talk to the caucus shake. I go, did you practice that question? He says, well, of course. He said, but I didn’t practice that question.

Jake:
[19:32] Right, not the way it was framed. You could practice what your position on the death penalty is without being put in that intensely personal hypothetical.

Scott:
[19:40] So he set up. It was a setup. It was clear that that was a planted question. I don’t care what anyone else has said. So how did he answer? Bernard, you know I’ve opposed the death penalty my whole life. Wrong answer, right? All of a sudden, seems insensitive. People shutting off the debate. Oh, wait, the Cosby show is still on. Let’s go watch the Cosby show and maybe we can have a little dessert before we go to bed. And it’s weighed on him. That answer has weighed on him. So from when he started the book to about a year ago, we would revisit it. And then all of a sudden, Jake, one second, we were talking about something. And he goes, Scott, I know how I would have answered that question.

Jake:
[20:26] Oh, I’m curious.

Scott:
[20:28] Yeah. And then he answered it. And, of course, you have to buy the book to find out what he said. There has to be some kind of teaser here, Jake. When he said it, I said, you nailed it. And then he stayed quiet for about five to ten minutes, looking down at the floor, shuffling with his hands. And you could feel something. I don’t want to use these cliches, a monkey off his back, whatever. But you could feel something had left him that was burning him for all this time. He had come to some closure. And we’re talking about a person at 91 years old. He had come to it. And then we just moved on. And we have not spoken about it since. You know, I felt like right then that I had done something, that we had done something together special for a person I cared very much for.

Governor Dukakis’ Political Origins

Jake:
[21:25] Well, besides a few stumbles that cost him that 1988 election, Governor Dukakis is obviously somebody who has great political instincts and a brilliant political mind. Let’s back up and talk about where he came from. What’s the superhero origin story for Governor Mike Dukakis?

Scott:
[21:43] You know, he’s a son of Greek immigrants, Jake. Like his father was a longtime doctor.

Jake:
[21:48] In Brookline, right?

Scott:
[21:49] In Boston. Yeah.

Jake:
[21:50] In Boston.

Scott:
[21:51] But you know, Boston, Brookline, obviously he would serve both. So obviously a brilliant man. Harvard Medical School.

Jake:
[21:58] Do you have any idea how far down Huntington his dad’s practice was? I used to live on Huntington.

Scott:
[22:03] I think it’s 455.

Jake:
[22:05] Okay. Cool. I’ll have to check that out. Go see what’s there.

Scott:
[22:10] But it’s a funny thing that here is this one of the most famous politicians in the Massachusetts modern history. And he’ll be like a Dunkin’ Donuts trying to get a munchkin and a coffee. And people will go up to him and go, hey. And then, of course, he’ll look at them and they’re going to go, your governor took a – your father delivered me. So we’re all just our parents’ kids no matter what we want.

Jake:
[22:39] It’s a small town, a small town in the city, right?

Scott:
[22:42] Yeah. And he said it happens countless amount of times. He spoke a lot about his mother. And I think his relationship with his mother was – he was much closer to his mother than his father because his father was working all the time. But at the Brattle Theater event at Harvard Bookstore that he attended with me, he started opening up about his parents for the first time. I was like, oh, like really opening up and talking about how special they were and what an impact they made on his life. And I think it all started with them. And they gave him just that foundation. he ran for like student council for class president when he was in the fifth grade that’s.

Jake:
[23:25] I was going to say that his career started as a brookline selectman but no it

Early Career Highlights

Jake:
[23:28] starts as a candidate for class president that’s great.

Scott:
[23:31] Yeah class president yeah so then he was part of the town meetings and then became a state rep and then in 1974 he, runs for governor. He beats the incumbent Francis Sargent, a Republican, and he becomes the 65th governor of the great state of Massachusetts. When you’re talking about, as you know, this is hub history, it’s an impressive group of people who’ve been governor.

Jake:
[23:56] Yeah, I mean, from John Hancock on down, right?

Scott:
[23:59] That’s exactly right. So being in that position is pretty impressive in itself, right?

Jake:
[24:07] I pulled up his Wikipedia when I was getting ready for this interview, And from getting out of the Army to getting his law degree to then some of those first elections as selectmen or maybe state rep, they were happening before he turned 30, which is just amazing to me to be so together and focused and able to get that done at such a young age after taking the time to serve in the military and go to law school. What an overachiever.

Scott:
[24:35] So he went to Harvard Law School. He didn’t like it.

Jake:
[24:39] He wasn’t a born lawyer, it doesn’t sound like.

Scott:
[24:41] No. I said, what did you not like about Harvard Law School? He goes, the law. He only went to law school because they didn’t have a public policy degree. Back then, they didn’t have public policies as a degree, so didn’t know what to do, so he went to – I mean, look, didn’t know what to do, so he’s so smart, he just went to Harvard Law School.

Jake:
[25:06] I might as well just go to Harvard Law. I don’t know what to do with myself.

Scott:
[25:09] Yeah.

Jake:
[25:09] A sentence that I’ve never said.

Scott:
[25:11] Yeah, I picked up this instrument. Okay, I’m going to appear at Carnegie Hall next week.

Jake:
[25:16] Right, that’s great. But I guess, yeah, if the law shapes public policy and that’s your interest, I guess it makes sense.

Scott:
[25:23] But irony of it all is that they were calling him in the presidential campaign a Harvard elite. And he’s complete opposite of that. And again, did not like Harvard. So maybe after this book, Harvard’s meeting, maybe they’re going to take him off famous alumni.

Jake:
[25:44] Did your conversations with him give you any sense of, as a, at the time, political newcomer, how did he introduce himself? How did he win people over? How did he get the votes to start that political career?

Scott:
[25:56] My father met a lot of politicians in his day. He said there was nobody more impressive one-on-one than Michael Dukakis. He likes people, but he’s all about grassroots. He’s all about ringing doorbells. He’s all about walking on porches. He’s all about walking in backyards. He’s all about going to ice cream smorgasbords, one precinct at a time, one person at a time. I can’t tell you how many stories I’ve heard of him talking to people. I mean, everybody’s met Governor Dukakis. I mean, I remember there was a crazy stat that is like seven. I don’t know what it was. I don’t want to distort the stat, but it was an incredible percentage. It was an incredible percentage of people.

Jake:
[26:35] 50% of all Bostonians have shaken Mayor Bonino’s hand or something like that.

Scott:
[26:39] Yes, right. Yes.

Jake:
[26:40] I’ll find that stat and put it in the show notes this week for our listeners. Yeah, right.

Scott:
[26:46] It’s incredible.

Jake:
[26:47] I believe it. As a politician, he would have these big block parties. He lived sort of right behind us here. And half the city would come and eat the sausages from the deli down the street and ice cream and beer. It was a great time. But of course, he met everybody at these huge parties. Hey listeners, this is Future Jake breaking in from the editing bay to say that in a 2009 Boston Globe poll, 57% of Bostonians said that they had personally met Mayor Tom Menino. That’s 57%. Okay, back to my conversation with Scott.

Scott:
[27:24] I met Menino in the same spot in Faneuil Hall in the lighting of the Christmas tree. Two years in a row, the same spot in Faneuil.

Connecting with the Community

Scott:
[27:35] Dukakis is like that. Being a mayor in a city and being governor is a completely different job. I mean, he has to worry about the Berkshires as much as he has to worry about Boston. But he, that’s what he was. He was one-on-one. The problem was, as a speaker, he was very stiff. And it was kind of a funny moment. I said, in the campaign, you were described as stoic in your nature. And he goes, stoic? How can I be stoic? I’m Greek. I must have been very studious that day, Jake, because I then read the definition of stoic. I said, first of all, stoic’s a Greek word. And then I read the definition of stoic, which is stoic. And he pauses for a moment and just gives me a look like, why did I let him in the door today? It’s funny because I had conversations with Governor Healy, Governor Patrick, Governor Weld, and Senator Warren for the book. I didn’t quote them as far as our meetings. It didn’t feel right when I ultimately did the book. But Governor Healy respects Governor Dukakis so much for his accessibility, for being accessible to the public.

Jake:
[28:52] It seems like everybody I’ve ever met ran into Governor Dukakis on the Green Line at some point.

Scott:
[28:58] Not everyone knows. He rode the T to the statehouse to his job every day and rode it home. And he rode it all over the place. And he didn’t have any state police with him. Didn’t have a driver. You want to talk to Governor Dukakis about a grievance, be on the green line at 7.30 tomorrow morning. And as far as the green line to the statehouse, he’ll probably walk there with you the rest of the way. You can talk to him.

Jake:
[29:29] Nothing says being in touch with the common man like riding the B-line to work every morning. Do you think he maintains or still maintains that everyday Bostonian, Brooklinian mindset?

Scott:
[29:41] Sudden oh he’s even more remarkable he engages with telemarketers he those people who call you up the potential spam he speaks to them and i asked him and he engages him and i asked him why he did that he says well i just appreciate folks trying to make a living for themselves and their family but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t get funny at times so of course i’m there for two hours a week he has to speak to people who have his business he can’t have my full attention at all times so telemarketer calls and he starts listening to him very intently and then he says this well i don’t own a jet ski but if i ever bought a jet ski in the future it’s good to know folks like you offer jet ski insurance, And I’m just – I can’t even – I’m trying to – I’m like putting my head under the table so I just don’t start cracking up. But that’s who he is.

Jake:
[30:49] That’s amazing. My very first job when I moved to Boston was calling people for environmental lobbying type group. And we would call – do fundraising calls and awareness calls. You sit there with your little terminal and the phone would automatically connect and beep in your headphones. You start giving your spiel, and the person hangs up on you. You go down to the next name. I would love it. Somebody would talk to me for five minutes to have a break from the constant restarting of that machine. So I would have loved to have gotten connected to Governor Dukakis on one of those calls.

Scott:
[31:20] So many people have told me – he was a professor for 20-plus years at Northeastern – how many reference letters he’s written for them. Some have them framed on the wall to this day, and he wrote it with a typewriter. Peck peck peck peck peck every one of them different not one form letter every one of them different even if he hardly knew the person he would just take some old trait that he may have picked up and emphasize that, to show you how many people’s lives he changed on a person to person basis, he’s one of the most special people I think that has come across the state of

The Turkey Carcass Tradition

Scott:
[32:01] Massachusetts in a long long time Well.

Jake:
[32:04] You know, if there’s one thing other than the tank photo from 1988 that people really connect with Governor Dukakis, it is Thanksgiving turkey carcasses. As he ages, understandably, he spends a little bit less time in the public eye, has fewer public speaking events. And one of the only public statements I can remember in recent years was basically, and I forget if it was The Globe or on TV, but just saying, please stop putting your turkey carcasses on my front porch. Do you know how –, That perhaps not entirely welcome custom got started. Like how did people start to associate, oh, he’s going to make soup. Let me drop off my leftover turkey at Governor Dukakis’ house.

Scott:
[32:47] That’s a funny story, Jake. So, yes, so he loves turkey soup. He’s a depression kid. He loves turkey soup. He’s loved it his whole life. So every once in a while, some people would drop off turkey carcasses after Thanksgiving. So it’s 2015 and the Globe, like you said, the Globe writes an article the day before Thanksgiving about how people drop off turkey carcasses at his door after Thanksgiving. CNN picks it up the next day. They do an interview on Thanksgiving with Governor Dukakis. It goes viral that night. Twitter blows up and all about Dukakis and his turkey carcasses. And then he wakes up the next morning. He had 29 turkey carcasses on his porch.

Jake:
[33:35] That’s a heck of a batch of soup.

Scott:
[33:36] Yeah. So I said, what did you do with them all? That’s when he had to go on and say, please stop doing this. So I said, well, what did you do with them all? He said, well, he froze most of them. And he said, then some I gave away. Can you imagine all of a sudden, Jake, you get a call and you see in your caller ID, it’s Michael Dukakis. And you think to yourself, oh, my God, my ship’s come in. Oh, my God, my life’s going to be changed forever. He hits the phone. Hey, Jake, can you come over? I have a turkey carcass for you.

Jake:
[34:04] All right, Scott, the book, The Duke, Weekly Conversations with the Last Honest Politician is on shelves now. What’s their publication date? It’s been almost a year, right?

Scott:
[34:12] Yeah, so May 9th, we published it.

Jake:
[34:15] Well, I have to ask, as we’re closing in on 11 months since publication date, are you still having weekly conversations with the governor?

Scott:
[34:23] Absolutely. I’ll be with him on Tuesday. And we have as much fun as ever. Uh we just laugh all the time and and i think he’s even become more loose with me and and self-deprecating and it’s just very funny uh his humor now and uh and i know he appreciates me coming over and i know i appreciate going over.

Closing Remarks and Future Events

Jake:
[34:46] Well, we will, of course, have an affiliate link in the show notes this week where everybody can buy the book, which I will name drop one more time, is The Duke Weekly Conversations with the Last Honest Politician. If our listeners want to hear more about you, Scott, and follow your work online, where should they be looking for you?

Scott:
[35:05] Yeah, we have a great The Duke Facebook page that if you want to be part of that, it’s got great participation. And then also I’m the host of the Boston Sports Talk Show, like I said, for the last 15 years called The Grandstanders. We’ve got a very exciting event coming up with the Duke book that I do want to mention. I’m proud to say that I will be speaking about the Duke book at the Statehouse, at the Statehouse Library, April 8th from 12 to 1.

Jake:
[35:32] Well, we’ll make sure to put the details of that talk at the Statehouse or the Statehouse Library in the show notes this week, too.

Scott:
[35:38] Great.

Jake:
[35:38] Scott Kerman, I just want to say thanks very much for joining us today and telling us about your conversations with Governor Mike Dukakis.

Scott:
[35:46] Thank you for having me.

Jake:
[35:48] To learn more about Scott and Governor Mike Dukakis, check out this week’s show notes at hubhistory.com slash 350.

Jake:
[35:58] I’ll have links to information about Scott’s author talk at the State Library inside the Massachusetts Statehouse. but make sure that you act fast, because that’s coming up this Wednesday, April 8th. I’ll also link to the grandstanders, and of course, I’ll have an affiliate link where you can support the show and independent bookstores when you purchase a copy of The Duke, Weekly Conversations with the Last Honest Politician. If you’d like to get in touch with me, you can email podcast at hubhistory.com. I still have profiles for Hub History on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram, and as at hubhistory at better.boston over on Mastodon. Lately, though, the only social media site where I actively post and hang out with listeners is Blue Sky. You can find me over on Blue Sky as hubhistory.com. If you’re taking a little break from social media, like most of the people I know, you can still get in touch. Just go to hubhistory.com and click on the Contact Us link. While you’re on the site, hit the Subscribe link and be sure that you never miss an episode. If you subscribe on Apple Podcasts, please consider writing us a brief review. If you do, get in touch with me. I’d be happy to send you a Hub History sticker as a small token of thanks.

Jake:
[37:25] That’s all for now. Stay safe out there, listeners.