Puritan Countermagic Revisited (episode 178)

Transcript

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Jake Intro-Outro:
[0:04] Welcome To Hub history, where we go far beyond the Freedom Trail to share our favorite stories from the history of Boston. The Hub of the Universe.
This is Episode 1 78 Puritan Counter Magic Revisited.
Hi, listeners. This is Jake. Before I kick us off this week, I’m gonna admit that I’ve been struggling to get much work done for the podcast.
One of our typical episodes takes many hours of work to prepare between tracking down sources, reading and writing a 10 to 20 page script.

[0:35] As we all lived through this pandemic season and practice social distancing, I just haven’t found the time to get that research done.
In part, it’s because I, like a lot of people, have been distracted by nearly obsessively tracking. News about the virus is progress.
It’s also partly because of my job on social media. You’ll see lots of stories about people who are trapped at home and bored because of social distancing, who dive into their hobbies with renewed vigor.
I’m experiencing almost the opposite because through my day job I provide support for doctors and hospitals.
While many people are seeing their work slow down or even losing their jobs.
I’m a as busy as I’ve ever been. While I’m distracted, we have several author interviews lined up for the next few weeks, and I’ll continue working on new episode scripts as I can.
In the meantime, you’ll see that we’re gonna run a few more classic episodes i e.
Reruns during these strange and unprecedented time this week, I’m gonna share my interview with Dan Neff, curator of the 17th century Fairbanks House Museum in Dedham,
We spoke back in August 2018 about the evidence he’s uncovered that generations of residents, perhaps spanning hundreds of years, use charms and hex marks in an attempt to ward off evil forces that might have included witches, demons and even disease.
But before I talk about Puritan counter magic, it’s time for this week’s Boston Book Club selection and our upcoming historical event.

[2:03] My pick for the Boston Book Club this week is the Devil’s Dominion. Magic and Religion in Early New England by Richard Godbeer.
I picked up this 1992 book to give me some background before first interviewing Dan Neff.
Among other things, Godbeer, argues the Puritan. Interesting counter magic arises from a conflict with NPR In theology, church teachings were ambivalent about the source of evil in temptation.
Was evil found within each person’s heart, making the struggle to live morally internal?
Or was it found in Satan and demons who walk the earth and physical form and had to be battled externally,
if it was the latter than the otherwise good and pious Puritans who turned to charms and hex marks were only using all the weapons that arsenal to hold off the evil forces that walked among them in the world.

[2:52] Here’s how the publisher describes the book The Devil’s Dominion examines the use of folk magic by ordinary men and women in early New England.
The book describes in vivid detail the magical techniques used by settlers and the assumptions which under laid them.
Godbeer argues that lay folk were generally far less consistent in their beliefs in actions, and their ministers would have liked.
Even church members sometimes turn to magic.
The Devil’s Dominion reveals that the relationship between magical and religious belief was complex and ambivalent.
Some members of the community rejected magical together, but others did not.
Godbeer argues that the controversy surrounding astrological prediction in early New England paralleled clerical condemnation of magical practice,
and that the different perspectives on witchcraft engendered by magical tradition and Puritan doctrine often caused confusion and disagreement when New England or sought legal punishment of witches.
And for our upcoming event this week, I have not one but two different talks coming up this week. They’re gonna be held virtually via zoom.

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Jake Intro-Outro:
[4:06] First up is a talk on Tuesday evening from the old North Speaker Series, which closes out Women’s History Month.
Here’s how Old North describes it.
Join us for a virtual celebration of influential women past and present.
Old North Church and historic site is excited to offer its first digital speaker series program.
10 on 10 women in the workforce on March 31st at 6:30 p.m.
In this interactive Webinar style program, you’ll hear from 10 powerhouse women working in Boston today as they each offer a five minute spotlight presentation on a visionary woman from Massachusetts.
History presentations will explore the evolution of women’s professional identities and the ways in which each of these women have paved the way for equal rights.
Afterwards. Stay online for a community chat about intersectional, feminism, pay equity and what we can each do today.
To advocate for equal rights for all in the workplace.
Let’s commemorate one of 20 twenties equal Pay day’s March 31st with revelry and solidarity.

[5:10] Next up, we have a lunchtime talk on Friday from Historic Beverly.
In normal times, we might think that Beverly is too far from Boston to count for upcoming events.
But since we’re only featuring online events right now, anything goes.
In fact, we can almost make it count under the normal rules, because the United Shoe Machinery Corporation used to be headquartered on Federal Street and Boston’s financial district.
That’s right. This talk is about the United Shoe Machinery Company, which between 18 99 and 1976 made everything from shoes to tanks to satellite components in his Beverly factory,
as part of historic Beverly’s First Friday, Siri’s.
They’ll be looking at the role of the shoe in World War Two by examining documents from the company archives.
Here’s how they describe the event.
During this first Friday, we’ll be looking at telegraph Communications that the United Shoe Boston offices received during World War Two, including messages from staff and factory owners and shareholders.
Thes correspondents help paint a picture of the landscape of Europe as enemy forces made their way across the country and well given unseen perspective into the lives of local European citizens during the wartime period.
We’ll have links to the zoom connection details for both events and this week’s show. Notes at HUBhistory.com/178.

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Jake Intro-Outro:
[6:34] Now, before we get to the interview, I have to offer my thanks to our latest patri on sponsor, Kathy M.
As well as Victoria G. Who made a generous contribution using our PayPal link.
Supporters like Victoria and Kathy make it possible for us to create hub history, their generosity, pace for our Web hosting and security, online audio processing tools, podcast, media hosting and, more recently, are automated transcriptions.
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If you’re in a position to do so, we’d appreciate your support.
If you’re up for it, go to patri on dot com slash hub history or visit hub history dot com and click on the Support US link.
Thanks again to all our new and returning sponsors.
And now it’s time for this week’s main topic as a reminder.
The Fairbanks House is recognized as the oldest wood framed building in North America, and it’s probably the oldest surviving building in Massachusetts.
It’s located on E street and dead um, just a few blocks outside the city limits of the Hyde Park section of Boston.
However, when the first English family settled along a lazy bend in the Charles River in 16 35 the town they first called contentment was a long day’s journey up river from their neighbors in Watertown.
Settler More Karu remembered Miles Courtney’s comment about the long trip.

[8:01] The river took many turns so that it was a burden, the continual turning about west, east and north.
We turned on that same meadow and progress none so that I rising in the boat, saw the river flowing just across a bit of grass in a place where I knew we had passed through nine hour before, Moore said. Miles than to me.
The river’s like its master, our good King Charles of sainted memory. It promises over much but gets you nowhere.

[8:29] The next year, those early settlers signed the dead, Um, covenant. Jonathan Fairbanks, first under the Fairbanks House, was the 31st signer.
Now, as we talk about belief in witchcraft and folk magic in the Fairbanks family and other early New Englanders, keep in mind that this isn’t a sign that they were a religious,
as you’ll see from this week’s Boston book club pick Belief in Magic did not run counter to 17th century Puritan belief.
In fact, religious belief could reinforce belief in magic.
Many Puritans treated the devil as a literal presence in the world that was actively trying to harm them physically and spiritually by afflicting them bodily, such as with disease or diverting them from righteousness.

[9:13] Our choice to air this interview again was also influenced by the big project that Nikki and I are managing in our personal lives.
Over the past several months, we’ve been in the process of gunning and remodeling the first floor of our house,
after a slow start, thanks to Boston’s Byzantine permitting process, everything was moving along really well until the point when the supplier we ordered our kitchen cabinets from suddenly closed due to Corona virus concerns.
As things have slowed down, we ended up with the new framing left exposed for longer than we expected.
While the walls were open, we incorporated some of the practices that we learned about from Dan Neff into our own house, including introducing hex marks and depositing a spiritual midden.
We’ll share an example of our handiwork in this week’s show notes. So without further ado, sit back and enjoy as we talk about folk magic with Fairbanks House curator Dan Neff.

Jake Interview:
[10:08] All right. We just want to welcome Daniel Neff, the curator of the Fairbanks House Museum, and get him to the show.

Dan Neff:
[10:14] Clue.

Jake Interview:
[10:15] Daniel, Nikki and I are lucky enough to live very close to the Fairbanks House Museum. So we’ve actually visited there a few times for our listeners who aren’t familiar. Or maybe you’ve never been there. Can you start out by explaining what the Fairbanks houses and why it’s important.

Dan Neff:
[10:31] The Fairbanks else is the oldest wooden structure standing in North America.
It was built in 16 37 added to significantly over the years. The last portion added around 1800.
It was lived in by eight generations of one family. The fair drinks the lattes, so 16 37 Jonathan Grace Fairbanks moved to dead I’m With Theirs are moved into the house with their six Children.
And then the last generation lady named Rebecca Fairbanks moved out in 1904 and at that time it became a museum.
And it has been a museum still owned and operated by the Fairbanks family today.

Nikki Interview:
[11:09] So, Daniel, you mentioned that the house was built in 16. 37.
But for those of us who have been there or if you see a picture online, the brickwork in the chimney says 16 36. So can you tell us how that ah discrepancy came to be and how, you know, like, how old the house actually is?

Dan Neff:
[11:22] Yes.

[11:29] There’s all right. So for many years they did believe it was built in 16 36.
Because if you look at the town records, that’s the year the family was admitted into. The town of Denham said that the town was founded in 16 35 by roughly 35 36 families.
The Fairbanks are the first family admitted into the town after it’s founded, so they’re not technically founding members, but they’re as close as you can get.
S O. They were admitted into town 36 so for a while without looking any further into it.
The assumption was they must have built house and 36.

[12:04] But doing more research. Um, that didn’t quite quite line up, right? So we wanted to make sure we were, you know, could still hold the claim of oldest wooden structure. So ways back.
Well, before I got here, they did what’s called danger chronology. Tree ring dating.
So what they did is they took a core sample out of several of the most important beams and particularly the summer beam in the hall, which the summer beam is the beam that holds up the rest of the house. So it is by necessity, the first thing that goes up when you’re building.
So it means, like however old the summer beam is that’s how old the houses s.
Oh, yeah, They took out a core sample. They looked at The ring’s not just the number of rings, but the width of the rings compared it to other trees. Weather data did some other very complicated stuff that it was done by Oxford. So I assume they knew what they were doing.
And they figured out that that tree that the summer being was made from was felled in 16. 37.
Back then, they did not age. Your season would, before they used it s o. If the tree is felled in 16 37 that is there, they would have used it to build a house.
And so we’ve been, you know, since we did the Dender chronology, we’ve been pretty confident. That was 16 37.
And actually, if you keep going in those town records, it lines up because 16 36 they admitted into town and 36. But it’s in like early to mid fall, and they wouldn’t have had time to build a little house before the first freeze.

[13:33] And so and actually back then, it’s a lot easier to move a large tree with the sled than it is with a cart, so they would have actually wanted to wait. They would have over the winner, felled all the trees they needed, move them to the site with sleds.
And then as soon as the ground thought in the spring of 37 they’d start building and they work fast enough back Then they will be done by the by the fall of 37 and the fair minx could move in.
So actually, the town records and the Denver Chronology lineup, which is really nice. That doesn’t always happen. Uh.

Jake Interview:
[14:06] So I guess before we move on in tow. Later generations. What were the Fairbanks doing in dead him in 16 37. So how did they fit into the fabric of the community back then? What were their occupations?

Dan Neff:
[14:19] That’s really interesting, because I’ve been doing quite a bit of research on, like why they came over in the first place, what they did once they got here.
So if you look at Jonathan Fairbanks, the sort of founder of the family, um, he back in New York, here he was a wood turner.
Hey, built things using a lady, and you specialized in building spinning mills.
But if you look at York sheer, there’s really only one industry in York share.
In the 16 hundreds sheep you have people raise sheep, the harvest. Will they make you know, clothing and other items out of the wall.
So being somebody who makes spinning wheels is useful, but you’re not the only guy doing it.

[15:01] So a variety of things sort of combined to make it really unappealing for the Fairbanks to stay in England.
First half, Jonathan inherits the land, and there’s no land to buy England’s overcrowded.
There’s a new tax on wood, which is what he uses for his livelihood.
And there’s some new persecutions of people who don’t agree with the Anglican Church, which he definitely does not agree with the Anglican church.
So he’s got a few different reasons that he doesn’t want he himself, his life and his six kids growing up, you know, living continuing to live or grew up in England.
So they come over here while they make it the Boston first.
We think somewhere on 16 33 and he meets a guy named John Dwight and John Dwight is a wool comer so well, calmer, and a guy who makes spinning meals are going to interact in some fashion, right?

[15:52] So John Dwight is one of the founding members of Dead Um Um, and so shortly after they I think what happened is shortly after they formed, they realized that nobody in the community was a wood turner.
Nobody knew how to build spinning wheels, and they’re all making their. They all want to make their own clothes because importing stuff from England would be really expensive.
So they’re like, Well, we need a guy And John Dwight says why?
I happen to know a guy who’s at least Puritan leaning. He’s not full blown Puritan, but he’s Puritan leaning and he builds spinning wheels.
So I think that’s how Jonathan ends up being the first new addition into the dead. Um, community.
Hey, has that skill set they needed.
Um, and so he From what I understand, he was fairly wealthy, actually, By doing that, Based on tax records, the Fairbanks House was the third largest house in debt in the 16 hundreds after the magistrate in the priest.

Nikki Interview:
[16:49] So we have done an episode actually very early on on Jason Fairbanks and the murder mystery surrounding him.
So could you refresh our listeners on how the the Fairbanks trialled impacted the family’s finances and how that, perhaps preserve the house to the state we have today?

Dan Neff:
[17:11] Yeah, um, that you said that I was like to say there are three things that have kept the house where it is today.
Um, it was very well built. It was well taken care of. And blind luck.
Um, and actually, part of that blind luck is the timing of what happened with Jason.
Um, so you have the guy in charge of the house at that time is Jason’s older brother Evan.
Easier Flavorings Jr and Junior is not very good at running a farm by this point, they’ve stopped the woodworking that his ancestors did, and they’re really just running a farm.
But Ebeneezer Jr doesn’t do it very well, and he’s having a lot of financial issues.
And then Jason is put on trial and found guilty, and both Jason and the rest of the Fairbanks family continued to insist Jason was innocent.
Um, even after he was executed, Lebanese air continued to insist that his young brother was was innocent.
He was framed, and he actually started self publishing books about how innocent Jason was and what little was left of the family fortune.
He dried up putting out all these books and pamphlets and everything about how his already executed brother was innocent. And this was all.
So, um, avenues there, Junior and Jason together, uh, sort of simultaneously ruined the family’s fortune and the family’s reputation.

[18:39] And so the silver lining, though, is that the house gets inherited by three of Ebeneezer Junior’s daughters, Prudence, Sally and Nancy.
Um, and they also inherit his debt. S o.
They end up selling off most of the family’s land holdings to pay off his debts, and then they don’t really have much money. They make their lives as their livelihood is Spencer’s.

[19:05] And so they make enough money to get by, but not enough money to, um, shall we say, indulge in the practices of the what people often call the Victorian era.
Um, Victorians, Aaron the bigger, better, newer, fancier.
Who cares if it’s older? Historic. Tear it down, build a nicer one While everybody else is doing that.
The Fairbank three sisters living in the house could just barely maintain what they have.
Eso If avenues or junior and Jason hadn’t ruined everything, later generations would have been able to afford ruining everything on purpose. So.

Jake Interview:
[19:38] So that the Jason Fairbanks trial was in the very early years of the 19th century. Tino one or two? I think so. When did the sisters take over management of the house?

Dan Neff:
[19:43] Yeah, you’re 18. No. One. Yeah.
So uh, Lebanese Air Junior, uh, lives until 18. 32.
And so when he dies, he officially leaves the house to his wife and three daughters. Three of his five daughters.
Two of his daughters did manage to get married and move away, but the three that never get Yeah, the three that never got married,
inherited the house with their mother, and then, ah, their mother, Mary Fairbanks, passed away a few years after every news or junior. And then they got full custody. The house.
Um, so, yeah, it was already getting into the mid 18 hundreds by the time they’re fully in charge.
And by that point, the the idea of whom improvement was really starting to take off.
And, uh, but yeah, Like I said, they just maintained what they had. At most. They added some more paper to a couple of rooms. That was about it.

Jake Interview:
[20:38] Well, they’re getting into the Victorian era. They’re still living in what’s essentially, at least at its core, still a very 17th century house.

Dan Neff:
[20:46] Yes, very much. Even Rebecca, who was the niece of the three Sisters. She’s the last one to live there.
She moves out in 1904 When she moves out. There is still, uh, no electricity, no running water and no heat, except what’s provided by the fireplace is so even the 19 0 for it is effectively a first period house.

Jake Interview:
[21:07] So, Daniel, we invited you to come and talk with us today. After we saw you speaking history camp last month, you’re presenting on the topic of ghosts and graffiti, superstition and belief in the Fairbanks House.
So since you took over his curator, you’ve discovered evidence or maybe reinterpreted evidence that shows that somebody who lived in the house and maybe over several generations, believed in a form of powerful folk magic.
Can you tell us sort of how you started down that that route?

Dan Neff:
[21:36] When I started his curator, the prior curator showed me that there was what’s called a hex mark over the fireplace and,
talked about how the the idea was the hex mark protected the house, and the evil spirits couldn’t go past a properly drawn hex mark or carved hex mark,
on dso You put it over the chimney because the chimney being always open is a very easy entry point for evil spirits, which is that sort of thing.
And she also mentioned the that there they had found shoes in the wall which he had done some research on and found that they were thought to protect the house from witches.
But that was about the extent of it. There was this hex mark over the fireplace and there was these shoes toa protect from which is okay.
So I already had some background in this stuff before I worked at the Fairbanks. Southside spent three years giving ghost tours up in Boston.
Um, as ah, as a teenager, I was fascinated with occult history and weird stuff, and we’ll still him.

Nikki Interview:
[22:34] Like all teenagers are.

Dan Neff:
[22:35] Yeah, right out. Yeah, but I never really lost it, and I ended up making it kind of part of my profession.
So, um and so I already had sort of, Ah, rough idea of how this stuff would would look on, Do you know?
Because I already knew there was some in the house from that one over the fireplace that was already identified.
I started looking around to see if there’s anything else, and sure enough, Um,
it seems like every time I go looking, I find more stuff that there’s no other explanation for other than this is hex marks.
Or if you want to get academic, a poacher pick markings. Uh, yeah. Uh.

Jake Interview:
[23:17] Oh, So what? What makes a hex mark? Well, if somebody’s looking at the wall of an old house, how will they know that’s what they’re seeing?

Dan Neff:
[23:26] Us, so that can be the tricky part. There’s a variety of different kinds.
And, um, really, you need to understand the context because they’re not the only thing that would be carved into walls.
You have Children and teenagers with knives and spare time that could just write random things in the walls.
You have what are called carpenters marks, which were used in the construction of the house, and you have all sorts of other things.
So you have to sort of filter through all this other stuff that the marks could be.
And then you compare them to other marks. And the best, uh, sort of place to start is English churches.
Because you know that marks there aren’t gonna be are unlikely to be things other than something.
Ah, religious. Um And so the common ones are, um, uh, what’s called like a pinwheel or hex foil design,
which you see a lot in German Dutch Pennsylvania decorations.
And the general fat is there. It’s meant more decorative. But if you see them carved into a wall in a New England building that’s more protective than decorative.

Jake Interview:
[24:43] Those the ones that look like a circle with the ark’s within it that make up sort of a daisy shape.

Dan Neff:
[24:48] Usually a series of circles or ovals that interlock and look vaguely like a daisy. Your mom kind of like spokes on a wheel.
That’s very common in German Dutch based cultures. Like in Pennsylvania. There were used mostly decoratively, but if you see them carved into all up in New England, that’s more likely to be a protective mark.
You also see circles excess.
Um, what’s one that’s very common in the Fairbanks House is Ah, Siri’s of three exes.
Um, my understanding is that it’s always three, because when Jesus was crucified, there’s three crosses it seeming to other guys.
So three crosses three exes and the ex.

Jake Interview:
[25:32] So the X the X stands for across in that context.

Dan Neff:
[25:35] Yes, and having done some research more recently, it’s a specific cross, it seemed.
Injuries. Cross ST Andrew was one of the ah lot of saints who were about to be crucified. Insisted they be crucified in some weird way because they didn’t want to die the same way as Jesus.
So, like Peter was crucified upside down, Um, same injury was crucified on an X shaped cross instead of a cross shaped crust.
Um, and so the exes, ST Andrew’s Cross, And that’s particularly interesting in the context of the Fairbanks has cause one of ST Andrew’s things was protection from disease and from that sort of thing.
So and we think that might be why there’s so many hex marks.
So yeah, it’s a lot of its context. If they’re on door frames, window frames near the chimney, those are much more likely to be hex marks, then standard graffiti items or carpenters marks.
So you kind of combine location and context and shapes, And if you know what you’re looking at, it it can be pretty clear.
Um, another interesting hex mark shape is it looks like a W or an end, but it’s actually meant to be a pair of these, either upside right or upside down.

[26:50] Um, and those stand for, Ah, Virgo Virgin. I was pronounced this room Virgo for Geum, which is Latin on, probably butchering it.
I don’t know, Len, but anyway, it effectively means Virgin of virgins.
It’s asking for the Virgin Mary’s assistance, which I thought was particularly interesting.
There. Several cases of the Double V in the Fairbanks house and their Puritan, uh, later Protestant, and I feel like asking for Virgin Mary’s help is a decidedly Catholic thing to do.

Jake Interview:
[27:22] Yeah, Actually, the ST Andrew’s Cross really sounds surprisingly Catholic for the Puritan descended Fairbanks.

Dan Neff:
[27:28] Yeah, exactly. And so the combination of those two has led me to think there must be and the sheer quantity of hex marks in the House,
has led me to believe that it seems like there’s a level of desperation involved, Um, sort of,
whatever they’re trying to do.
They’re really, really desperate to do it with these marks.

Jake Interview:
[27:54] So I guess before we get into some of the specific markings you found what are these meant to guard against her? One of these? These marks for who are they trying to keep out if you put a hex mark over the mantel?

Dan Neff:
[28:09] The hex marks are predominantly to protect to the house and the people in it from UAL spirits, demonic forces, the devil himself.
Um, actually, another hex mark. That scene in several places in the house is what’s called a demon trap.
And it’s a series of hatch marks, you know, inner inner crossing lines, usually very complicated.
And they believe that demons, if they saw something like this, they were compelled to trace the complex pattern with their finger.

[28:45] And the idea was you would make the pattern so complex that the demon would spend the whole night tracing.
And by the time he was done, the sun was up and he would have to go back from whence he came and couldn’t bother your family.
So, yeah, that was the idea that there was a Puritan isn’t and the early versions of Protestantism that came from it.
Eso believed that, like the devil and his agents were both real and actively trying to sway you towards evil and trying to hurt you.
And so even though the church itself thought these our magic was Satan’s magic, there was no other kind of magic, according the Puritan church officially.
But then you have all these Puritan people who their ancestors used folk magic. And so they’re using folk magic kind of on the down low there, pretending they’re not doing it. But they’re all doing it.
And so it’s It’s so this sort of weird combination of old,
uh, really old versions of Catholicism and really old versions of pagan and ideas kind of seeping down through the generations to Puritans who are pretending they’re not doing it but absolutely doing it.
And, ah, because again they feel all these things. Ariel and they’re going to use Fokker, White Magic or Apple trip at Magic to protect themselves from all these evils.
But of course, the most common evil was witches. They’re they’re everywhere.

Nikki Interview:
[30:09] So, speaking of which is, I was fascinated by your explanation of the shoe at history camp and how a shoe can protect your family from witches. Can you elaborate on that? A little bit.

Dan Neff:
[30:22] Absolutely. Um, so Yeah, the So what you would do is you take a shoe that was very well worn. And that’s important.

Jake Interview:
[30:32] Not a new shoe.

Dan Neff:
[30:32] Yeah. You can’t be new shoes. Those won’t help. It has to be an old bean, a beat up shoe.

Nikki Interview:
[30:37] Like you ran a marathon in the shoe.

Dan Neff:
[30:39] Or you wanna shoot for several years and there’s no way to repair it anymore.
Like, really, really worn out on dhe. That’s important. Because so that the very thing a witch is trying to take from you is your essence or a little bit of your soul.
And so, what does that have to do with shoes?
Well, at the end of a long day, you’ve run a marathon or whatever. You take off your shoes and you get that smell That Yeah, that funk, Right? That today we understand, is your foot sweat sticking up your shoes happens everybody.
Well, they thought that was literally your essence getting trapped in your footwear back in the day.
And so Okay, we’ve got these old shoes full of essence. Well, hey, that’s what the witch is trying to steal from us.
So we take their shoes and we put them in the walls, preferably near the fireplace.
Near the chimney because that’s the witches favorite way to get in the house and why there’s so many hex marks. Near the fireplace is, if you have all your doors properly, your doors and windows properly closed.
That which is easiest way to get in the house, is to turn herself into a smoker vapor and float down the chimney, come out into your your house, turned back into a witch, and now she can take your s and center leisure.
So you have these shoes full of essence near the chimney. She’s floating down.
She senses the essence and the shoes and goes to check it out.

[32:02] And the witch goes into the shoe to try and steal the essence.
And part of the legend of witches back then was that a witch can’t move backwards.
So that which goes into the shoe to steal the essence can’t back out of the shu. You’ve trapped a witch in your old footwear.

Nikki Interview:
[32:19] Just like you could trap a shark in your footwear.

Dan Neff:
[32:21] Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, Witches were apparently very similar to sharks. Huh?

Jake Interview:
[32:26] Uh huh.

Dan Neff:
[32:27] Um, so that’s what fascinates me about which is, is how complex the folklore around them was and how many layers of just like weird logic.
Leaps were involved in the sighting. You could catch a witch with your old shoes.

Jake Interview:
[32:43] Has the nice side benefit that a thrifty Puritan didn’t have to give up a new, expensive pair of shoes, only the ones that were beyond salvage.

Dan Neff:
[32:51] Yeah, right that it’s very patent protection because, you know, we never want to throw anything away. But we also don’t want to use new things for something like throwing in the wall, so Oh, hey. Yeah, This works better with old. Choose what a coincidence.

Jake Interview:
[33:05] So speaking of things in the walls, you described it at history camp, finding near the shoes, something you described as a spiritual midden. What what’s that?

Dan Neff:
[33:16] We haven’t 100% found one at the fair bring tests, but we found things that might have been so often the shoes could be sort of referred to as part of a spiritual midden.
But the general idea was that it would be a pile of items important to the family or to a specific family member that you’re trying to protect on.
It was a form of what’s called sympathetic magic.
Think of it is like reverse voodoo.
So, like the idea of voodoo is, you have something related to the person you can hurt. The person this is You have something related, the person who protects the person or the magic. The bad things happen to the stuff instead of the person.
Really sort of creepy. Side note of this is what’s called a pop It. Yeah, it’s like a puppet, but it’s supposed to represent a specific person.
It’s almost like is it is a reverse voodoo doll. Pretty much the idea was the poppet.
It was usually made with the person’s hair or fingernails or even blood or other things mixed into the stuffing of it,
and the any evil magic intended for the person would go to the pop it instead, or you would have.
Ah, it’s called which bottles? Which again? Same thing. Various bodily things go into the bottle, usually urine on other things. And then.

Jake Interview:
[34:32] I think I just read a quote from I want to say it was increase Mather. It could have been cotton railing against the the urine experiment. Is that what he would have been referring to there.

Dan Neff:
[34:41] That’s Yeah, that’s almost certainly what he’s talking about. Yeah, or something very similar.
Um, yeah. People would take these bottles or jars or whatever. And stuff those into the walls.
A cz another layer of protection from evil spirits and witches.

Jake Interview:
[34:57] Now, while we were prepping for this episode, Nikki and I had a healthy debate about whether a cat has been found anywhere at the Fairbanks House or we just imagined because it seems so appropriate,
that we imagine one had been Is there a cat in your wall or under your doorstep that you know off, huh?

Nikki Interview:
[35:13] Under your hearth, maybe.

Dan Neff:
[35:13] Not not that effect. Not that we found. Now there are other hand I think we get. There are other houses where they have found cats in the walls, but not at the Fairbanks s.

Jake Interview:
[35:24] Yeah, I know the Three Cranes Tavern in Charlestown, which is also first period. Very similar time, Period when that was excavated, I want to say, in the nineties or early two thousands, they did find a cat under the doorstep there. So maybe I’m maybe I’m mixing the two up.

Dan Neff:
[35:28] Easy.

[35:36] Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Like is it lets in the same genre of protections.
Was you could put shoes you could put which bottles you could put cats.
Yeah. All these things served roughly the same purpose.

Jake Interview:
[35:52] I hear the cat was dual purpose, both protected against witches and mice.

Dan Neff:
[35:56] Yeah. Yeah, Well, there was those that idea that, like a thing that if it did something when it was live or active, it would keep doing it if you preserved it.
So, yeah, a cat that would hunt my swell it was alive would protect your house from mice when it was dead.
Made sense to them.

Jake Interview:
[36:13] So when people think about witchcraft and charms and counter magic and and hex marks, our minds probably go to the late 17th century sort of the era of the Salem Witch trials.
Do you have any sense of the wind? The markings you found in the Fairbanks House date from Are they around that same period earlier? Later.

Dan Neff:
[36:34] It’s a trick. I think there’s a lot of evidence to suggest there from multiple generations.
Andi. It’s possible that some of them were from that era that sound witch trials.
So even though there were never any witch trials in denim itself, the people indicted would have absolutely heard about what was happening in Salem and probably would have reacted in,
somewhat of a dramatic fashion, I’m sure so some of the marks, I think actually, it seems possible that a lot of the marks that air in the hall nearest the main fireplace, the heart those appear to be older are,
they’re at least they’re carved deeper into the wood and and they just seem like they might have been there longer.
They seem like they’ve had time to be carved and then worn down a little s o. Those ones are probably the oldest.
I think the majority of the marks actually come from the late 18th early 19th century, though beast unlikely, the majority of them are found in the two wings of the house,
So basically the house really has three sections. There’s the original house in the middle.
Ah, West Wing was added around 1700 and the but heavily modified around 1800 then the East Wing was added in 1800.
Cem. Most of the marks show up in the two wings, which means they can’t.

Jake Interview:
[37:55] So if those weren’t even constructed until around 1800 then they must be newer than that. That’s really interesting.

Dan Neff:
[38:01] Yeah, exactly. So that’s why the timing actually works out, that it’s right around the same time as Heaven, Easier. Fairbanks Jr and Jason, Um right around that same time is them.

Nikki_Interview:
[38:13] Daniel. I have a question about I guess the ah newer wing, which is just that is run 1800.
So I will preface this by saying that would not necessarily identify as a believer of the supernatural, I would say I am optimistically curious, but ah turned to science first.
So the first time I visited the house, I think, was before you took over the curator ship of the house.
And, um, you know, we looked at the hex marks on the mantel, but we didn’t really talk about anything else in the house beyond that.
And we were in that wing for a tour,
and I was so uncomfortable in that wing, like, I don’t know, I’ve never really had an experience like that in another place where I really was just uncomfortable and a little scared.
And I really wanted to leave.
And then I saw your talk it history camp, and it all kind of made sense.
So tell, tell us more.

Dan Neff:
[39:20] Eso first of sort of respond to your first government. I consider myself an optimistic skeptic, but I mean by that is that I believe the potential. First, this stuff is very riel.
There’s a lot of about this universe we don’t understand.
But my bar for evidence is very high. You’ve got to do a lot to convince me something’s paranormal.
That being said, I’ve been here for about two and 1/2 years and I have seen a lot of heard.
Experienced a lot of stuff I cannot explain.
Um, now one thing about The West Wing is I’m sure the part of the house you were referring to because actually, whenever we have people who consider themselves sensitive or ah, medium or anything like that,
they almost always get a feeling of dread or just sort of uneasiness in the West Wing. And.

Nikki_Interview:
[40:03] Yeah, I’m not a sensitive. I’m like the opposite of that, though.

Dan Neff:
[40:08] I probably am, too. But But you just picked up on something that night or were there that day because, yeah, we’ve had multiple people who were in the West Wing who have said like I need to leave. I can’t be in this room.
Some of them were mediums or sensitives. Others were just people who had no prior interest in the paranormal or anything, but just like had a weird feeling in that room in that wing.
So you’re definitely not alone in that you have that West Wing really gives off a weird vibe.
Interestingly, over in the East Wing, um, the other newer part of the house.
There is one spot in the room where, on three separate occasions during a ghost store, a woman has fainted in that room, and they have always been standing in the exact same spot.
It’s always very brief, like they so they get really faint and they find in your by chair on. I have a chair like right there, just in case, because it’s happened three times now.
It’s but like and they’re fine, just, you know, seconds later.
But it’s just weird. But it’s always a woman, and she’s always standing in the same place on like, is it three times it stops being, you know, twice.
You can call it a coincidence. Three times it starts getting a little weird, so you know that the activity or the weirdness, the stuff it’s hard to explain definitely seems to be mostly in the wings. The use doing in the West Wing.

Jake Interview:
[41:30] So if those wings date from around the time of the families reversal in fortunes, we might say they’re looking Maur to these sort of supernatural forms of assistance.
Does that reveal a sort of, like a sense of desperation with the family, do you think?

Dan Neff:
[41:46] I think so, Yeah. Um, I think Jason is not the only member of the family that’s having issues at that point.
So we have, um, Ebeneezer Junior’s aunt seventies there. Senior sister named Abigail Fairbanks lives in the house.
Her entire life dies when she’s in her mid eighties, I think, and the Doctor refers to is dying off a posie.
And palsy was what they referred to pretty much any movement disorder. Anything like Parkinson’s tic disorders. Tourette’s, anything like that.
Anything that involves involuntary movement that’s tends to be repetitive.
They would just call that palsy so she has something that she died of, and but before that, it kept her from being self sufficient and kept her from ever getting it kept her from ever getting married or moving out.

[42:46] So there’s something I have to issue that this woman has that affects your whole life.
Then you have Ebeneezer Junior’s oldest son, Calvin Fairbanks, effectively drinks himself to death when he’s 22.
Um, and that’s only ah, year or two before Jason is put on trial.
Um, and then you have Jason’s younger brother are No sir. Jason’s slightly older brother. Sorry, Abner Fairbanks was born two years before Jason and died almost exactly one month after Jason was hanged.
And that is literally everything we know about Abner Fairbanks, which is weird. We have at least some information about everybody else in that generation.
But I can tell you, Abner his name. And when he was born, when he died and nothing else about him, which he adjusts, Um, there’s something something the family didn’t want to talk about in relation to him.

Jake Interview:
[43:45] In your talk it history camp, you made reference to signs in the house that the family might have been seeking supernatural assistance for what we consider a medical problem here in the material world. Do you think that’s related to Abner?

Dan Neff:
[43:58] Absolutely, uh, Abner End Or Abigail, I think, are the reasons for the maybe Jason to some extent, because he had definitely had some medical issues, too.
But I think it’s It’s Abigail and Abner, both more likely the reasons why they would go to these lengths.

Jake Interview:
[44:16] So what what is or what was found in the West Wing of the house that you believe connects to a sort of ah medical issue?

Dan Neff:
[44:23] First, off the ah, a room in the West Wing has by far of the most hex marks.
Um, it has ah ba full half of all the hex marks in the house or in one small room and somewhat unsettling Lee.
That room has a lock on the outside of the door now, part of why I think there’s this sort of like medical and magic connection,
is because a TTE the time people did not understand these movement disorders like they knew there was a medical source of things like what they called Posey’s.
But then there’s stuff like epilepsy and anything that causes seizures, which is just completely beyond them.
In 1800 and all the way back to the ancient Greeks.
Epilepsy was viewed as a punishment by the gods in ancient Greece, and so there’s this long standing all the way back to the ancient Greeks.
There’s this feeling that epilepsy or seizures or anything like that is something supernatural, something otherworldly.
And so it’s pretty easy to make that make that leap between the magic and the medical issue and so other things that support this possibility.

[45:35] So again, the majority of those hex marks in that room are the same injuries. Cross and ST Andrew.
One of the things He’s the state of his protection against disease, specifically seizures and that sort of thing on epilepsy.
And then, on further inspection, I realized that right out in front of that door with lock on it on the floor, there is a nail, a brass nail driven into the center of one of the boards, and all the other nails in the house are iron.
There are no other brass nails I found anywhere else. So okay, wise one brass nail in the middle of floor.

[46:10] So I did a lot of research and found very little for very long.
And then eventually I found this one academic paper, and the the person who read it was saying that they had found several texts that suggests that if someone has a seizure or an epileptic fit,
what you do is you watch where when they have they’re fit, they’re gonna collapse, see, watch with their headlands.
And then you drive a nail into the ground where their head landed and that will effectively pin the epilepsy to the ground, and it will cure them.
And I think that’s what that name was doing. There is. That was an attempt to use this old folk magic trick to try and take somebody’s issues away. Somebody’s epilepsy or something similar away. And I’m assuming it probably didn’t work.

Jake Interview:
[47:02] Well, it probably worked about as well as medicine at the time would have, which is pretty much not at home.

Dan Neff:
[47:05] Yeah,
and that’s, I think, sort of the correction matter why this stuff was so prevalent is that James is justice effective. Is any medicine Justus? Effective is prayer.
Um, it all worked roughly the same amount of time.
So everybody had their reason to be that they were right, you know?

Jake Interview:
[47:28] I think you describe some other marks in the same room. Was there a cancer symbol? I think that, you said sort of reinforced the idea that they were looking for protection against disease.

Dan Neff:
[47:38] Yes, absolutely. That’s in the hall right near the door. Into that room is the symbol for the Zodiac symbol. Cancer.
Um, and cancer is another symbol that the sign will protect you from disease again.
Yet there are a lot of hex marks, and a surprising number of them are specifically protections against illness rather than just General Evilness.
So yeah, that’s that’s what leads me. Thio strongly believe that there’s some fairly serious illness in the family around around the same time as the events with Jason.

Jake Interview:
[48:15] So I know at at history camp, you gave an example of what modern, so called modern medicine at the time that the end of the 18th beginning of the 19th century would have had to offer for somebody stuff of suffering from epilepsy. What would have gone into a chair like that?

Dan Neff:
[48:30] Ah, variety of things that we know today would,
not be good for you s o er the.

Jake Interview:
[48:37] Uh huh.

Dan Neff:
[48:42] The short list here is ah, red valerian root pulverized castor as in castor oil.
Uh, curson, which is, um, pretty much similar Thio point on this stuff they used for malaria, cinnamon That certainly helped,
folic acid Joe upto so anyway, um, infused frigid wine, garlic polarized.
They use all these weird abbreviations back then and just expect you to know what they mean.

Jake Interview:
[49:14] Sure. So far, Valerian root. Probably the most helpful thing. It won’t actively kill you at least.

Dan Neff:
[49:18] Yeah, Yeah, right. Um well, that’s the none of these will by themself kill you.
It’s the fact that what you have is three or four projective sze things that make you throw up.

Jake Interview:
[49:32] Yeah.

Dan Neff:
[49:32] You have several things that will give you, um, the opposite. Let’s put it that way.
Um, several things that just do nothing whatsoever. Um, a few things that will give you, um, like, give you a fever, just write off.
And, uh, and yeah, and then the cinnamon. Yeah, which it will definitely help the most out of any of those.

Jake Interview:
[49:49] And then sentiment to freshen up your breath.

Nikki_Interview:
[49:55] Ist helps it go down a little sweeter.

Dan Neff:
[49:55] But then they right. Right.
Um well, they did originally believe a lot of things that we now think of as, um,
like, cooking items started out his medicines, including cinnamon, peppermint, Ah, Coca Cola, Of course, that originally had coke in it.
Yeah, but yes, a lot of you say they thought cinnamon was actually something that would help, but yeah, it turns out it would just make your breath smell nice.
But that experiment, um, everything that I found in one of those these books to give an idea of just how far medicine had gotten. At this point, I’m talking about epilepsy.
For those who have it in the second degree, the worst version are imagined by the vulgar to be possessed by the devil.
It has been observed that the epilepsy, especially the essential epilepsy, is very much governed by the moon.
So in back to back sentences, he’s telling people who think it’s demonic, possession, vulgar and then saying, Oh, yeah, it’s caused by the moon, Not not the devil.
So And this is in a medical textbook that that passage.

Jake Interview:
[51:06] But if it’s that widespread of a belief, you can certainly see why somebody would be grasping at every straw, even the supernatural straws.

Dan Neff:
[51:13] Exactly. Yeah, even doctors. They’re talking about how it’s affected by moon phases, and the more I study medical history, the more I appreciate modern medicine.

Jake Interview:
[51:23] That’s certainly one of Nicky’s refrains. Oh, wouldn’t you like to go back and see Victorian Boston? No, Only if I can take modern medicine.

Dan Neff:
[51:32] Yeah. Um, that’s something I was sort of sort of get people think about at the house.
You know, you have this old house, new running water, no electricity, no heat and talking about, you know, the medical conditions they had to deal with in the Yes. You didn’t want to go.
You don’t want to go back in time. That’s awful. No, I mean the smell alone, would not you?

Nikki_Interview:
[51:55] The essence, the essence of the 17th century.

Dan Neff:
[51:57] You have the essence. Exactly. There’s ah, yeah, there was a whole lot of essence going around. Um.

Jake Interview:
[52:03] Uh huh.

Nikki_Interview:
[52:05] So, speaking of getting people to the house, um, tell us a little bit about the ghost tours.

Dan Neff:
[52:11] So the ghost tower started pretty much read after I got here.
So deserve a little back story. When I got sir, when I was applying for the job that I was talking with, the prior curator and the board, the president of the board and some other people who were here and actually asked like they’re they’re, you know, is really old house.
People lived in it for, you know, over 200 years and he goes stories and everybody was like, No, no, no, No ghosts. Nothing.
And so I take the job and part of the live the part of being the curator of the Fairbanks Houses. You actually live in another building on the same property.
And so I moved in and I’m starting my job.
And then everybody I talk to you is like, let me tell you about the ghosts.
It’s okay, s So I guess there are ghosts.
And I got all these stories and, um, and having worked in, ah, in the sort of thing before I give tours of Ghost Tours in Boston for three years and I’ve always had an interest in this stuff.
So I was like, I realized there was enough material here to make a ghost tour, and I had heard from other museums that, like the Mark Twain house, is a great example who have had fantastic success adding ghost tours. And so.

Nikki_Interview:
[53:24] Wait. Is the Mark Twain house haunted by Mark Twain?

Dan Neff:
[53:27] No, it’s one of his daughters, I think.

Nikki_Interview:
[53:29] Oh, cause I love Mark Twain, Greatest American of all time.

Dan Neff:
[53:34] He’s cool. I definitely recommend his two. Is that museum both during the day and at night, I would go to both like I’d go on a date, time tour and a nighttime to her Really great museum.
Really? Well, run. So, yeah, everybody was telling me all these ghost stories, and I realized I had something here. So I put together Ah, ghost tour.
And, um, what’s really interesting about that is so, you know, my wife and I moved in and everybody’s telling this the story isn’t about a weekend.
My wife and I While we’re getting ready for bed, it’s a little late. It’s like one in the morning.
And where we’re timing about all these stories people have been telling me, and one of them was that the ghosts would set off the motion alarms.
Um, and part of why they wanted the curator on on site is those motion alarms go off in my apartment.
And so yeah, the alarm goes off this, like, as we’re talking about how the arm goes off s So I go and check in It’s, um, emotional arm in one of the upstairs rooms.
And so I turned off the alarm. I reset it. It doesn’t go off again.

[54:40] Figured Well, that’s that’s good for tonight. I’ll check it in the morning and in the morning. Nothing’s out of place. Nothing weird.
Um, and this happens repeatedly from from then roughly once every week or two, always between one and 3 a.m.
And it keeps happening right up until I start giving go Stuart.
Then it stops, and it only happens if I’ve It’s been too long in the year and I haven’t given because we only give ghost stories in the fall.
So, like an early spring when I haven’t talked about the ghost for a while, it will go off once or twice, and then I’ll go in and, like, just yell out the ghost like you’re gonna talk about you later.
It’s we’re in the off season. There’s no one here to talk to about you, and then they’ll stop going off again.
So this is definitely one of those things where it’s hard to be a nonbeliever when this is happening. Like it’s uncanny.

Jake Interview:
[55:33] Has not a raccoon in the eaves or anything.

Dan Neff:
[55:35] Yeah, exactly. Well, that’s the thing. So it would always be the same room, the East Wing chamber.
So the second story in the East Wing, and the motion sensor in that room is about halfway up the wall, so there’s no way like a rat or a mouse would set it off.
It have to be something fairly large, and there’s no evidence of anything large enough to set that off in that wing. And there’s no holes in the wall big enough for one to get in and out of.
But something’s setting off that alarm. And actually, there was one of the top one of the last times it went off before a ghost tours silenced it.
Or ah, you know, at least paused it.
One of theirs a rocking chair in that room and it’d rotated about 45 degrees overnight, Um, and set off the alarm.
And people have seen the same rocking chair rocking on its own, that sort of thing.

Nikki_Interview:
[56:25] What is that? The chair people are supposed to sit on when they pass out. Okay.

Dan Neff:
[56:28] No, no, that’s a modern changes on the first floor. This is a rocking chair up up on the second floor.

Nikki_Interview:
[56:34] On the second.

Dan Neff:
[56:35] Um, the ghost tours are very popular, like, isn’t that first year was very good on the second year, it actually sold out completely, which is great for us, but I said well, the people we had to turn away.
So are we added. More dates for this year were actually starting August 17th.
Friday on Ben will be every Friday and Saturday through the end of October.
Um, in seven, $15 for adults, $12 for Children, and I recommend reservations.

Jake Interview:
[57:07] How the people make that reservation.

Dan Neff:
[57:09] The best way is to call 617326 1170.

Jake Interview:
[57:17] And we’ll make sure we include that in the show notes as well, so people can reference that.

Dan Neff:
[57:21] And yes. So that’s really the best way is is to call. Make that reservation on, and they will.
I’m pretty sure they’re gonna. At least a lot of them are gonna book up pretty quickly.
So very popular.

Nikki_Interview:
[57:32] I mean, I’m kind of scared to come back during the day. I don’t know if I could come back at night.

Dan Neff:
[57:37] It’s not cheap. And one thing I like to tell people who are a little wary is that whatever is in that house, it’s friendly.
Nobody’s ever been attacked or hurt in any way. My thought is just whatever’s in the house now is is just family members protecting their house like they did in life. They’re just watching after it, um, keeping an eye on things.
Um, so there’s really did nothing. Nothing bad has at least paranormal.
Nothing bad and paranormal has ever happened in that house.
But a lot of interesting. A lot of weird stuff that I cannot explain.

Jake Interview:
[58:13] So finally, Daniel, before we let you go, please tell our listeners where they can find more information about you, the Fairbanks house and where they can follow your activities online.

Dan Neff:
[58:22] The Fairbanks has ah website. Um, Fairbanks House, the Borg that was just recently updated. It’s very nice.
And then we have a Facebook page, the Fairbanks house.
If you just look at Fairbanks House on Facebook, you get some weird Facebook thing that isn’t us.

Jake Interview:
[58:40] Ah.

Dan Neff:
[58:40] But if you look up the fair princess, that’s actually us.

Jake Interview:
[58:44] So Fairbanks house dot org’s in the Fairbanks House on Facebook. Not not just their cells. Well, Daniel Neff just want to say thank you very much for joining us on the podcast today. It’s been a real pleasure speaking with you.

Dan Neff:
[58:48] Yes, not fair begs us. Yes.

[58:57] No, thank you for having me.

Jake Intro-Outro:
[59:00] Well, that about wraps it up for this week. To learn more about folk magic and hex marks at the Fairbanks House, check out this week’s show notes at hub history dot com slash 178,
We’ll have pictures and floor plans of the Fairbanks House, as well as some photos of the hex marks we added to our own house.
Like everything else in the world, the Fairbanks House is closed right now.
Their spring opening is scheduled for May 1st, but in this season of Corona virus, that’s probably a good idea to check Fairbanks house dot org’s before showing up.
And, of course, love links to information about our upcoming events and Devil’s Dominion, this week’s Boston Book Club pick.
If you’d like to get in touch with us, you can email us at podcast of hub history dot com.
Were hub history on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram? Or you can go toe hub history dot com and click on the Contact US link while you’re on the site, hit the subscribe link and be sure that you never miss an episode.
If you subscribe on apple podcasts, please consider writing a separate for view.
If you do drop us a line and we’ll send you a hub. History sticker is a token of appreciation, that’s all for now. Stay safe out there, listeners.

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